Load development ...




rw blakemore

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Forum Supporter
i had a long post typed out but like Gwain said your learning on your own which is a good thing and finding what works for you...id still like to hear/see the results of the seating test with the 42.3g load if you pursue it.
I am going to run the seating test and I'll post the results.
 

Gwain

New member
I am going to share this too. I am planning on going back to this and then load these results into QL and go from there. This is absolutely the very fastest and best way I have found to get to a load. LongRange mentioned the Scott Satterlee method. Here is one illustrated on Wife's 6mm Creedmoor with 108 grain ELDs. Loads listed across bottom in .2 grain increments, ten rounds. (note, I ran this up and then down from the highest load, because I was testing this theory and wanted a double data set, so 10 rounds twice, once up and once down) Hope this helps. You might consider doing this from 40.7 - 42.5 in .2 grain increments. Also, see the 40.8-41 nose dive in velocity. That is typically the sign you have hit the pressure limit and it shows in this test as a fairly significant velocity dump. It is an easy and reliable way to find flat spots or accuracy nodes and the pressure limit - fast. Hope this is helpful.

1549153371611.png
 

rw blakemore

Member
Forum Supporter
LongRange, you suggested that I take a look at the scott satterlee load development method. I did. There was mention of charting the velocity v load to see the flats. For what it's worth, a chart of our data is attached. Using the average velocity for each load from the ladder results, it appears that 41.0 to 41.6 grains and 42.4 to 42.7 are load ranges worth exploring. Interesting, and close to the 40.9 grain and 42.9 grain "node" loads shown in Gwain's work above.

Velocity v Load Chart.jpg
 

Gwain

New member
LongRange, you suggested that I take a look at the scott satterlee load development method. I did. There was mention of charting the velocity v load to see the flats. For what it's worth, a chart of our data is attached. Using the average velocity for each load from the ladder results, it appears that 41.0 to 41.6 grains and 42.4 to 42.7 are load ranges worth exploring. Interesting, and close to the 40.9 grain and 42.9 grain "node" loads shown in Gwain's work above.

View attachment 39429
My numbers are pretty darn close to your averages there....hmmmmm....lol
 

rw blakemore

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Forum Supporter
Gwain, thank you for all of the information you’ve shared today. It’s really added to my knowledge base. Are the weighing factors for the 6.5 Creedmoor and 308 Winchester shown somewhere on as part of the van der Walt Table that was lost in the screen shot?

LongRange, I really would like to hear your comments on the causes and fix for the high ES values you mentioned in an earlier post. Or, if you can give me link to a site where this is discussed I can work with that.
 

Gwain

New member
That table is all I got. The 260 Rem is on there as .47 and the 6.5 Creed is a slightly less overbore so I used the .48. The .5 standard is the 308 case. The table was done using an equation for overbore by someone in Europe. I have gotten better results doing all the work to get the very best input data I can. H2O volume, case length, overall length, bullet length, bullet weights etc. Just because it is supposed to a 142 grain bullet does not mean that lot is exactly 142. Normally 141.95 is more like it. The tighter the data input the better the out put. That said, I would run a Satterlee ladder and use that as the base line velocities for QL and graph them. This will give the flat spots along with the OBT if done right. Can really reduce the shooting time to find the node. This is what I have been working on. LongRange has decided that QL is just not worth the time given you can see a flat spot doing the ladder alone. He has a point. I load for multiple rifles/calibers and want to be able to refine this a bit more, if possible. I am undecided yet. Learning. But the Satterlee method has been proven time and again as an effective way to find accuracy nodes fast.
 

rw blakemore

Member
Forum Supporter
I can't thank you enough for fielding my questions and helping me gain more insight into using QL. It's been a pleasure working with you. If there is any way I can ever help you (grind out some calcs, tables, charts, etc.) don't hesitate to ask.
 

LongRange

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8 pages and most of it talking numbers and graphs and optimum barrel times and barrel lengths and case length and internal capacity and bullet weights and velocities ran frontwards backwards then sideways and 3 different neck tensions and 14 different seating depths and the 20 other things i missed because i have a headache...oh and the hours spent playing with your program to get it as close as you can...then BAMM...time to tap a new 8lb jug and start over...well not completely but still more tweaking involved....you see what i mean about how over thought reloading is.

NO THANKS!!! im old school...dump powder in a case up the charge .2-.5g at a time(depending on the size of the case)seat a(known to shoot good)bullet .025 off the lands with .002 neck tension(use a known to shoot good/low ES primer)and shoot 3 shot groups until i get sticky bolt or really flat primers then i know im over pressure but then again the only way to TRULY KNOW if you are over pressure is with pressure trace equipment but i can guarantee you that once you SEE signs you ARE over pressure...EVERY load ive ever shot except one was over book max and book velocity..im not saying its ok for anyone else im just saying!

high ESs...the 2 most common causes are primers and/or neck tension.
neck tension...set it and forget it...charge weights,primers and seating depths will have a bigger effect...i run .002 Gwain runs .003...if you have a lot of bullet in the neck id suggest .002 if not id suggest .003....in my experience if your jumping bullets .001 or less causes high ESs and over .003 does the same...you MIGHT get away with .004 i never have.

and yes im confednt that i can build a load for just about any rifle with in 35 rounds with the exception of the real big bore stuff but in that case i know someone that shoots starting at 2000yds that id seak advise from or if the gun is just a POS to start with.

now lets be honest here...how many ACCURATE/CONSISTENT loads have you found using QL within 50ish or less rounds?
 
Nice discussion here.

I'm just poking in to join the talk and bookmark the thread.

On brass - I've been using Lapua for a 308 load with the Berger 185 Classic Hunter at about 2725 fps
I'm getting over 25 loads on that brass, primer pockets are still tight.
 

LongRange

Obsessed Member
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i was running 600 piece at a time for several years so it would last 2 to 3 barrels but when prep time rolled around it was a PITA so ive backed down to 200 pieces and that normally lasts the life of a barrel barrel...i will lose 20-50 pieces between matches and loose primer pockets.
 

rw blakemore

Member
Forum Supporter
8 pages and most of it talking numbers and graphs and optimum barrel times and barrel lengths and case length and internal capacity and bullet weights and velocities ran frontwards backwards then sideways and 3 different neck tensions and 14 different seating depths and the 20 other things i missed because i have a headache...oh and the hours spent playing with your program to get it as close as you can...then BAMM...time to tap a new 8lb jug and start over...well not completely but still more tweaking involved....you see what i mean about how over thought reloading is.

NO THANKS!!! im old school...dump powder in a case up the charge .2-.5g at a time(depending on the size of the case)seat a(known to shoot good)bullet .025 off the lands with .002 neck tension(use a known to shoot good/low ES primer)and shoot 3 shot groups until i get sticky bolt or really flat primers then i know im over pressure but then again the only way to TRULY KNOW if you are over pressure is with pressure trace equipment but i can guarantee you that once you SEE signs you ARE over pressure...EVERY load ive ever shot except one was over book max and book velocity..im not saying its ok for anyone else im just saying!

high ESs...the 2 most common causes are primers and/or neck tension.
neck tension...set it and forget it...charge weights,primers and seating depths will have a bigger effect...i run .002 Gwain runs .003...if you have a lot of bullet in the neck id suggest .002 if not id suggest .003....in my experience if your jumping bullets .001 or less causes high ESs and over .003 does the same...you MIGHT get away with .004 i never have.

and yes im confednt that i can build a load for just about any rifle with in 35 rounds with the exception of the real big bore stuff but in that case i know someone that shoots starting at 2000yds that id seak advise from or if the gun is just a POS to start with.

now lets be honest here...how many ACCURATE/CONSISTENT loads have you found using QL within 50ish or less rounds?
Many times. One example provided in post #73.
8 pages and most of it talking numbers and graphs and optimum barrel times and barrel lengths and case length and internal capacity and bullet weights and velocities ran frontwards backwards then sideways and 3 different neck tensions and 14 different seating depths and the 20 other things i missed because i have a headache...oh and the hours spent playing with your program to get it as close as you can...then BAMM...time to tap a new 8lb jug and start over...well not completely but still more tweaking involved....you see what i mean about how over thought reloading is.

NO THANKS!!! im old school...dump powder in a case up the charge .2-.5g at a time(depending on the size of the case)seat a(known to shoot good)bullet .025 off the lands with .002 neck tension(use a known to shoot good/low ES primer)and shoot 3 shot groups until i get sticky bolt or really flat primers then i know im over pressure but then again the only way to TRULY KNOW if you are over pressure is with pressure trace equipment but i can guarantee you that once you SEE signs you ARE over pressure...EVERY load ive ever shot except one was over book max and book velocity..im not saying its ok for anyone else im just saying!

high ESs...the 2 most common causes are primers and/or neck tension.
neck tension...set it and forget it...charge weights,primers and seating depths will have a bigger effect...i run .002 Gwain runs .003...if you have a lot of bullet in the neck id suggest .002 if not id suggest .003....in my experience if your jumping bullets .001 or less causes high ESs and over .003 does the same...you MIGHT get away with .004 i never have.

and yes im confednt that i can build a load for just about any rifle with in 35 rounds with the exception of the real big bore stuff but in that case i know someone that shoots starting at 2000yds that id seak advise from or if the gun is just a POS to start with.

now lets be honest here...how many ACCURATE/CONSISTENT loads have you found using QL within 50ish or less rounds?
Many times. One example provided in post #73. Many more examples available if you're interested. Probably just luck.
 

rw blakemore

Member
Forum Supporter
decent groups in #73 which one are you currently shooting? any pics farther than 100yds?
Yes, the 69.5 grain group is suitable for the purpose intended … hunting. Notice, that group has a QL OBT of 1.0.

From post #73 -
“… “For example, a friend purchased a brand new Sisk 300 Win Mag. He gave me components and powder and asked me work up a load for him. QL estimated that 69.0 gns of RL22 would be ideal, 69.5 gns worked better in the test. See attachment (it’s kinda like the method described in the texasprc link). Only spent 15 rounds to get a decent load. He used that rifle and load for a couple of years and was happy with it.”

No pictures. I had the rifle one day. Ran QL and loaded some cartridges in the morning. Went out that afternoon and shot the target shown. Provided data to the owner by phone. He loaded 20 cartridges, picked up his rifle from me and left on his hunting trip the next day. Four days later he returned from Colorado and phoned me to say his new light weight rifle and “load” worked well enough to take down an elk at ~ 710 yds.
 

rw blakemore

Member
Forum Supporter
Nice discussion here.

I'm just poking in to join the talk and bookmark the thread.

On brass - I've been using Lapua for a 308 load with the Berger 185 Classic Hunter at about 2725 fps
I'm getting over 25 loads on that brass, primer pockets are still tight.

Welcome, thanks for joining. Impressive case life! Can you share any information on your reloading process and accuracy/precision of your loads?
For the most part we’re discussing how analytical tools and barrel node theory can be used to determine the "best load” for a given powder, bullet, and optimum muzzle velocity. However, since reloading processes play a big part in achieving a "best load”, discussion concerning reloading processes is also of interest. There are a couple of knowledgeable guys on the thread who are contributing some great information on both topics. Feel free to ask questions and/or contribute to the conversation.
 

LongRange

Obsessed Member
Forum Supporter
i am more interested in your RPR and how it is shooting actually...my buddy has an AR-10 in 65CM with a proof barrel and that thing is a hammer.

back to the 300wm did that gun have a short barrel?
 
The rifle is r700 20" 12-twist Krieger

I live in a rural area, can shoot past a mile off my front porch. I shoot often and almost every load is a handload.
I prefer to shoot at a distance, most shooting is between 600 and 1100 meters.

I see some of the guys here are using quickload. I have gotten data from the quickload software of friends numerous times. It's a good guide for sorting things out and suggesting powders, but I get my results from working on the load.

For instance with this 308 load I couldn't get quickload data. There wasn't anything at the time for the 2000mr powder. I arrived at a starting load from fiddling with other data and went from there. At this point I'm getting strong velocity with mild case and primer signs, with room to go further but I'm happy with the accuracy and deviation.
I will typically try different primers, but I've found for this kind of load that the BR2 is almost always very good for the job. FWIW I have dozens of different powders in stock, and I have almost every primer choice in stock. All loading is done on single stage presses. I have six presses set up in my space.
I also check for runout in my process and work to minimize runout. The 308 load is seated in a competition micrometer seating die. Decapping by hand, partial neck size only, trim every loading on Forster tool.

For the brass I'm turning the necks. I think I'm at .013"
I'm using an rcbs chargemaster, which has been consistent.
I anneal *maybe* every fifth or seventh firing.
I let feel through the press be my giude.
Annealing is done in hand over a torch, dropped in water.

Getting to a load I'm watching deviation while running up the charge weight. When I'm in the middle of a flat spot in deviation I'm looking for a plateau in velocity. That's where I start looking for accuracy, and with this rifle that's where I will typically be looking at about half minute accuracy.

The rifle is a factory DM action, and part of the package is a limited magazine box length.
I ended up settling on the 185 Classic Hunter (hybrid) because I found that it handles the .025" or so jump very nicely. That bullet works great out past 1000 meters

Once I get a load that works, I tend to abandon paper and just shoot steel targets.
I'm in it for practice in real condition, and my land offers many challenges around the year. Much up and down draft, many changing winds, much topography.

With a good load that works I track the speed through varying weather conditions and powder temperature, and I'm finding that I can get great results with the Shooter app for trajectory, so that I can mainly focus on learning how to read the wind - which isn't easy, but the effort is rewarding.

I don't bother weighing the Lapua brass or the Berger bullets. They're fine for my half minute expectations.
 

rw blakemore

Member
Forum Supporter
The rifle is r700 20" 12-twist Krieger

I live in a rural area, can shoot past a mile off my front porch. I shoot often and almost every load is a handload.
I prefer to shoot at a distance, most shooting is between 600 and 1100 meters.

I see some of the guys here are using quickload. I have gotten data from the quickload software of friends numerous times. It's a good guide for sorting things out and suggesting powders, but I get my results from working on the load.

For instance with this 308 load I couldn't get quickload data. There wasn't anything at the time for the 2000mr powder. I arrived at a starting load from fiddling with other data and went from there. At this point I'm getting strong velocity with mild case and primer signs, with room to go further but I'm happy with the accuracy and deviation.
I will typically try different primers, but I've found for this kind of load that the BR2 is almost always very good for the job. FWIW I have dozens of different powders in stock, and I have almost every primer choice in stock. All loading is done on single stage presses. I have six presses set up in my space.
I also check for runout in my process and work to minimize runout. The 308 load is seated in a competition micrometer seating die. Decapping by hand, partial neck size only, trim every loading on Forster tool.

For the brass I'm turning the necks. I think I'm at .013"
I'm using an rcbs chargemaster, which has been consistent.
I anneal *maybe* every fifth or seventh firing.
I let feel through the press be my giude.
Annealing is done in hand over a torch, dropped in water.

Getting to a load I'm watching deviation while running up the charge weight. When I'm in the middle of a flat spot in deviation I'm looking for a plateau in velocity. That's where I start looking for accuracy, and with this rifle that's where I will typically be looking at about half minute accuracy.

The rifle is a factory DM action, and part of the package is a limited magazine box length.
I ended up settling on the 185 Classic Hunter (hybrid) because I found that it handles the .025" or so jump very nicely. That bullet works great out past 1000 meters

Once I get a load that works, I tend to abandon paper and just shoot steel targets.
I'm in it for practice in real condition, and my land offers many challenges around the year. Much up and down draft, many changing winds, much topography.

With a good load that works I track the speed through varying weather conditions and powder temperature, and I'm finding that I can get great results with the Shooter app for trajectory, so that I can mainly focus on learning how to read the wind - which isn't easy, but the effort is rewarding.

I don't bother weighing the Lapua brass or the Berger bullets. They're fine for my half minute expectations.
Nice rifle! Thanks for sharing your reloading details. A couple of questions:

(1) what stock/chasis are you using?
(2) on average, how many rounds do you fire when developing a load?

What I love is being able to step off the porch and shoot. If I could do that I probably wouldn't rely on QL either.
 
I'm using the factory supplied HS precision stock. This rifle was sold to me in the 90's
Works great.
I shoot off my pack or off bags. Going for field conditions as much as I can.

With something like 308 in a rifle like this I'm done well inside 100 rounds.
Taking a high strung wildcat from concept to done can take longer, especially if there isn't a lot of similar cartridges and/or if there's numerous different bullet/performance niches expected from the cartridge.

For instance I have been working on a super high velocity handgun cartridge. Quickload was poked a few times, and the final results were not so close to the QL suggestions. At about 300 rounds I ended up with two solid loads that were pretty amazing.

With old sporting cartridges, such as Bore Rifle loads for 19th century double rifles that need to shoot to the regulated sights, it's much more about staying inside a performance ceiling and getting the loads to shoot together. There it's often projectile hardness and load column - lead alloy and the distribution of cards and wads over powder and what or how much powder to stuff in there. Load development for double rifles is a whole different discipline than loading for the precision rifle.
 

rw blakemore

Member
Forum Supporter
You're having way too much fun and doing some very interesting load development. Like you, I don't use QL for handguns. QL results where not accurate or reliable. If you have a little spare time, I'd like to hear more about your super high velocity handgun.