Model 19 Forcing Cone





#1
I have a Model 19 S&W 6" have owned it for 30 yrs, the end of the barrel inside the frame next to the cylinder is split at 6 o'clock. Research on the internet says this happened from 125 gr bullets wich is what I was shooting at the time. S&W says it is unrepairable, don't have the old barrels in stock and don't make them anymore. I guess I need to buy a new/used barrel and find local gunsmith for installation. Love this Gun, don't want to give in to this problem. Hope somebody has ideas or suggestions, will be very thankfull for any help!
 

NYECOGunsmith

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#2
Several ways to go about fixing it.
Find a used barrel with a good forcing cone and have the barrel replaced. If the rifling is shot, have the new barrel relined at the same time. The 4 inch barrels are the ones I see most commonly up for sale, since folks seem to either want to go down to the 2.5, or up to the 6" from the 4', so you might consider the shorter barrel if you can't find a 6".

Scrounge up a Python barrel and build yourself a "SMOLT/SMYTHON".
Sleeve the existing barrel. This involves finding a S&W barrel from another .38 caliber K frame, say, a Model 10, then you remove the original barrel, and chuck it up in the lathe, and part off the threads up to the shoulder, being careful to leave a perfect 90° shoulder.

Then you take the new barrel, and turn the outside diameter down, I don't remember the diameter off the top of my head, been a few years since I did one of these, anyway you turn it down to a smooth tube, leaving a square shoulder just ahead of the barrel thread shank.

Put the original barrel back in the lathe, and bore it out (removing the rifling completely) to a diameter that is just a thousandth or so larger than the outside diameter you turned the new barrel to.

Heat the old barrel up, cool the new barrel with liquid nitrogen, and press them together until the shoulders meet. Should be a nearly invisible line if you did it right, and when the two temp stabilize, they will be locked together for ever.

Or bore the old barrel out .003 to .005 over the size of the new turned down barrel, and silver solder or epoxy them together just like you would if you were installing a real barrel liner.

Sleeving the old barrel like this leaves the ejector rod housing etc. all original, and maintains all the original barrel markings as well. Gun won't be worth as much as it would be with a factory replacement barrel, but if none are available and you want to shoot it, so what.

You can also carefully bore out the forcing cone, and then silver solder or weld in just a sleeve there, and recut the forcing cone, being careful to not damage the leade. But this one is tricky and doesn't always work, because the little bit of the forcing cone you have to leave behind ends up so thin that it's like tin foil and getting a good weld or solder without melting it is next to impossible.

You can try TIG welding up the forcing cone, and then recutting it, but the barrel really should be re-heat treated after that or the welding in of a forcing cone only sleeve to make sure it is strong enough to withstand the pounding, and after one of these two methods, I would only shoot mild .38 spl loads in it ever after, or risk another cracked cone.

As for the old myth that shooting 125 grain slugs caused the issue, I personally doubt that it is solely the fault of a given weight projectile.
Not all 125 grain .38's are the same length you see, nor are all loaded in magnum / hot loads. So it's not just the projectile weight that is the issue.

Lots of rounds down the bore will crack the forcing cone if they are hot loads, due to the impact of the projectile entering the forcing cone and the fact that the bottom side of the forcing cone on the M19 isn't all that heavily supported by the frame. That's why it tends to crack there first.

TRUE , shooting lots of 125 grain hot loads will speed this up, particularly IF the 125's are short in length, as in that case the nose doesn't always enter the forcing cone fully before the heel exits the cylinder throat.

If that is the case, it is possible for the projectile to hit the weaker bottom portion of the forcing cone first instead of entering the forcing cone coaxially aligned, and that will hammer the forcing cone.

Add in the flame cutting that can occur with hot powder charges and there's the potential for the cracked forcing cone, but it isn't, in my opinion, solely due to 125 grain projectiles, the load has a lot to do with it too. And the metallurgy and heat treat of an individual barrel. Some cracked early, some late, some not at all when fed a diet of hot 125 grain loads.

You pays your dime and you takes your chance as they say in the carnival shooting gallery.
 

Kinoons

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#3
Several ways to go about fixing it.
Find a used barrel with a good forcing cone and have the barrel replaced. If the rifling is shot, have the new barrel relined at the same time. The 4 inch barrels are the ones I see most commonly up for sale, since folks seem to either want to go down to the 2.5, or up to the 6" from the 4', so you might consider the shorter barrel if you can't find a 6".

Scrounge up a Python barrel and build yourself a "SMOLT/SMYTHON".
Sleeve the existing barrel. This involves finding a S&W barrel from another .38 caliber K frame, say, a Model 10, then you remove the original barrel, and chuck it up in the lathe, and part off the threads up to the shoulder, being careful to leave a perfect 90° shoulder.

Then you take the new barrel, and turn the outside diameter down, I don't remember the diameter off the top of my head, been a few years since I did one of these, anyway you turn it down to a smooth tube, leaving a square shoulder just ahead of the barrel thread shank.

Put the original barrel back in the lathe, and bore it out (removing the rifling completely) to a diameter that is just a thousandth or so larger than the outside diameter you turned the new barrel to.

Heat the old barrel up, cool the new barrel with liquid nitrogen, and press them together until the shoulders meet. Should be a nearly invisible line if you did it right, and when the two temp stabilize, they will be locked together for ever.

Or bore the old barrel out .003 to .005 over the size of the new turned down barrel, and silver solder or epoxy them together just like you would if you were installing a real barrel liner.

Sleeving the old barrel like this leaves the ejector rod housing etc. all original, and maintains all the original barrel markings as well. Gun won't be worth as much as it would be with a factory replacement barrel, but if none are available and you want to shoot it, so what.

You can also carefully bore out the forcing cone, and then silver solder or weld in just a sleeve there, and recut the forcing cone, being careful to not damage the leade. But this one is tricky and doesn't always work, because the little bit of the forcing cone you have to leave behind ends up so thin that it's like tin foil and getting a good weld or solder without melting it is next to impossible.

You can try TIG welding up the forcing cone, and then recutting it, but the barrel really should be re-heat treated after that or the welding in of a forcing cone only sleeve to make sure it is strong enough to withstand the pounding, and after one of these two methods, I would only shoot mild .38 spl loads in it ever after, or risk another cracked cone.

As for the old myth that shooting 125 grain slugs caused the issue, I personally doubt that it is solely the fault of a given weight projectile.
Not all 125 grain .38's are the same length you see, nor are all loaded in magnum / hot loads. So it's not just the projectile weight that is the issue.

Lots of rounds down the bore will crack the forcing cone if they are hot loads, due to the impact of the projectile entering the forcing cone and the fact that the bottom side of the forcing cone on the M19 isn't all that heavily supported by the frame. That's why it tends to crack there first.

TRUE , shooting lots of 125 grain hot loads will speed this up, particularly IF the 125's are short in length, as in that case the nose doesn't always enter the forcing cone fully before the heel exits the cylinder throat.

If that is the case, it is possible for the projectile to hit the weaker bottom portion of the forcing cone first instead of entering the forcing cone coaxially aligned, and that will hammer the forcing cone.

Add in the flame cutting that can occur with hot powder charges and there's the potential for the cracked forcing cone, but it isn't, in my opinion, solely due to 125 grain projectiles, the load has a lot to do with it too. And the metallurgy and heat treat of an individual barrel. Some cracked early, some late, some not at all when fed a diet of hot 125 grain loads.

You pays your dime and you takes your chance as they say in the carnival shooting gallery.
Crazy old man you don’t know what you’re talking about. I’ve read on the internet that the guys in the know just take some JB weld and reinforce the cone.

I even heard from my best friends girlfriends sisters boyfriend who sleeps with her cousin who knows a guy that says you can shoot 357 out of an old 38 special all day.

Some expert you are. (n)(n)(n)

;)
 

NYECOGunsmith

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#4
Crazy old man you don’t know what you’re talking about. I’ve read on the internet that the guys in the know just take some JB weld and reinforce the cone.

I even heard from my best friends girlfriends sisters boyfriend who sleeps with her cousin who knows a guy that says you can shoot 357 out of an old 38 special all day.

Some expert you are. (n)(n)(n)

;)
And here I thought I was gonna go through the entire holiday season without no love! Thanks Kinoons!
There will be something extra in your Christmas Card this year when you open it...………………..you do have a NBC Hazmat suit, right??
Give the gift that keeps on giving, give the gift of Strontium 90!

One of these days I need to sit down and write a post (or a book) of all the "Fixes" to guns (and other things) that came into the shop over the years...…..and yah, I have seen someone try to fix a forcing cone with JB weld.

And then there was the fellow who , new to reloading, didn't dump powder into a .357 mag case, and stuck a 158 grain slug about half way up a 6 inch barrel in a Model 27.
The next round up just happened to be one he had double charged, and it split the barrel, but didn't harm the top strap (minor miracle there).
To "repair" the bulged and cracked barrel he had carefully hammered the barrel back to pretty much round (on the outside anyway) by putting a steel rod down the bore (after he knocked out the stuck slugs) and then he patched the crack with JB weld.
His complaint when he brought it in?
The JB Weld only stayed in the crack for one or two shots, and he wanted to know how we gunsmiths got it to stay put for a longer period of time! Someone had told him that's how a gunsmith would repair it!

I think he may have been the product of your best friends girlfriends sisters boyfriend who sleeps with her cousin.
Hmm, if I write that post or book, wonder if I ought to include the correct fix at the end of each story...……..naw……….liability lawsuits are so much fun, why deny myself the chance to get all dressed up and spend a lovely day or two in court!
 

NYECOGunsmith

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#6
I call bs
😂 😎
Yah, you're right, I never will write that book! Would have to name names, give dates and locations, and I swore to protect the not so innocent involved in some of those repairs!

Any gunsmith who has been in business for more than a year or so will likely have stories about stuff brought in for repairs that had been previously "worked on", and in more rural areas, some of those are real doozies!
Betcha Gunbutler, Big Cholla, and a couple of others here have more than a few of their own as well, maybe we ought to collaborate on that book, get filthy rich from it, or more than filthy rich by taking money not to publish it complete with the names of those involved!

Not all great gunshop stories revolve around repairs though. Was reminded recently by one of my brothers who was in the shop the day this fellow came in with his kids...….all 9 of them, ranging in age from about 3 months to 15 years or so.

They all troop in, and I ask what I can do for them, since I don't see any of them packing a gun, I figure he wants to buy something, or maybe just look around to amuse the kids. Brother was loafing behind the counter, eating my donuts and drinking my coffee as usual, so I had an extra pair of eyes in case any of the kids got into mischief.

Fellow says he is interested in taking up shooting , so I ask what kind.

He says he doesn't know, he's never handled a gun, but that his wife told him he needed a hobby to get him out of the house...……...I looked at the 9 kids between 3 months and 15 years of age following him and had to excuse myself to go in the back room and laugh, as it occurred to me WHY she was suggesting that he needed a hobby,...……... so she could get some rest!

Big brother, who sometimes lacks manners, just roared with laugher and suggested he take up fishing, it costs less he said, and he could take the kids with him and feed the troop with what they caught.
 

Earthquake

Obsessed Member
#7
Just find your self a nice 6" bull barrel, a Bo-Mar rib and a under lug and build your self a nice pin gun. now if I could just find a nice Model 10 to build it on so I don't have to do it to my very clean Model 19 snub nose!
 

Attachments

#8
Several ways to go about fixing it.
Find a used barrel with a good forcing cone and have the barrel replaced. If the rifling is shot, have the new barrel relined at the same time. The 4 inch barrels are the ones I see most commonly up for sale, since folks seem to either want to go down to the 2.5, or up to the 6" from the 4', so you might consider the shorter barrel if you can't find a 6".

Scrounge up a Python barrel and build yourself a "SMOLT/SMYTHON".
Sleeve the existing barrel. This involves finding a S&W barrel from another .38 caliber K frame, say, a Model 10, then you remove the original barrel, and chuck it up in the lathe, and part off the threads up to the shoulder, being careful to leave a perfect 90° shoulder.

Then you take the new barrel, and turn the outside diameter down, I don't remember the diameter off the top of my head, been a few years since I did one of these, anyway you turn it down to a smooth tube, leaving a square shoulder just ahead of the barrel thread shank.

Put the original barrel back in the lathe, and bore it out (removing the rifling completely) to a diameter that is just a thousandth or so larger than the outside diameter you turned the new barrel to.

Heat the old barrel up, cool the new barrel with liquid nitrogen, and press them together until the shoulders meet. Should be a nearly invisible line if you did it right, and when the two temp stabilize, they will be locked together for ever.

Or bore the old barrel out .003 to .005 over the size of the new turned down barrel, and silver solder or epoxy them together just like you would if you were installing a real barrel liner.

Sleeving the old barrel like this leaves the ejector rod housing etc. all original, and maintains all the original barrel markings as well. Gun won't be worth as much as it would be with a factory replacement barrel, but if none are available and you want to shoot it, so what.

You can also carefully bore out the forcing cone, and then silver solder or weld in just a sleeve there, and recut the forcing cone, being careful to not damage the leade. But this one is tricky and doesn't always work, because the little bit of the forcing cone you have to leave behind ends up so thin that it's like tin foil and getting a good weld or solder without melting it is next to impossible.

You can try TIG welding up the forcing cone, and then recutting it, but the barrel really should be re-heat treated after that or the welding in of a forcing cone only sleeve to make sure it is strong enough to withstand the pounding, and after one of these two methods, I would only shoot mild .38 spl loads in it ever after, or risk another cracked cone.

As for the old myth that shooting 125 grain slugs caused the issue, I personally doubt that it is solely the fault of a given weight projectile.
Not all 125 grain .38's are the same length you see, nor are all loaded in magnum / hot loads. So it's not just the projectile weight that is the issue.

Lots of rounds down the bore will crack the forcing cone if they are hot loads, due to the impact of the projectile entering the forcing cone and the fact that the bottom side of the forcing cone on the M19 isn't all that heavily supported by the frame. That's why it tends to crack there first.

TRUE , shooting lots of 125 grain hot loads will speed this up, particularly IF the 125's are short in length, as in that case the nose doesn't always enter the forcing cone fully before the heel exits the cylinder throat.

If that is the case, it is possible for the projectile to hit the weaker bottom portion of the forcing cone first instead of entering the forcing cone coaxially aligned, and that will hammer the forcing cone.

Add in the flame cutting that can occur with hot powder charges and there's the potential for the cracked forcing cone, but it isn't, in my opinion, solely due to 125 grain projectiles, the load has a lot to do with it too. And the metallurgy and heat treat of an individual barrel. Some cracked early, some late, some not at all when fed a diet of hot 125 grain loads.

You pays your dime and you takes your chance as they say in the carnival shooting gallery.
Thanks NYECOgunsmith, will look for used barrel, and stick to 158 factory loads.
 
#10
This is my only reasonable option. However getting the same exact barrel is not going to be easy, they don't make M19"s anymore so I look on Brownells, E-Bay whatever . I want the 6" combat target model. Some 19's came with the plain jane barrel. It's always 4" or 2 1/2" and sometimes in very poor condition. I'll just keep looking till I get lucky. Hey, don't any of you guys have an old M19 laying around the house.
 
#11
That barrel can be reproduced, but it's expensive.

There's a fellow named Jack Huntington in Northern Nevada who is a revolver wizard.
Having a new barrel contoured to this profile isn't a cheap job, but it's definitely not impossible.
 

Earthquake

Obsessed Member
#13
There is a 4" barrel on Gunbroker right now but it is nickel plated, you could have it striped and blued.
You could always sell it to me cheap so I don't have to cut my 2 1/2" to build my HB gun.

eQ
 
#14
That barrel can be reproduced, but it's expensive.

There's a fellow named Jack Huntington in Northern Nevada who is a revolver wizard.
Having a new barrel contoured to this profile isn't a cheap job, but it's definitely not impossible.
I Wonder how much? I paid $287 for the gun 30yrs ago, don't want to pay $500 for a new barrel.
 
#16
FlyingZebra - I was referring to the guy who asked if I wanted to sell it. I did check out his website and he looks good. Areal professional. I have not called him yet, but a list of services offered said "Barrel Refit" $410. I hope that means making a brand new barrel and installing it. I think in the end I'm going to learn a cold hard lesson. What ever the cost I will pay it. I want to ask him about the "125grain Theory" one guy told me that is just a myth, I'm not so sure I believe it but that is what I was shooting at the time. I do thank you for giving me his name, he is going to be a life saver!
 

MAC702

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#17
My GUESS is that "barrel refit" will not include making a barrel. I have a Model 66 that needed a new barrel. I found an old barrel on GunBroker and learned how to do it myself. Now, I'm just an armorer for a few guns, no real gunsmith, and this was way above my paygrade, but it was my gun, so what the hell. It's done. It's beautiful. It took all friggin' day, but that includes making a few Delrin vise blocks, too.