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Private sells

steve

Obsessed Member
#61
Scenario: I order a new Daniel Defense DD5V1 at my local GS. They in turn order it from a wholesaler or direct from Daniel. The paper trail starts. I do the form at my LGS take it home, and wife has a total fit. I sell it to you without paper work for $200. You in turn sell to someone else with no paperwork. The DD5V1 is stolen while the new owner is out of town. Some mentally ill person buys it on the street and shoots up a church. The nutcase escapes the crime scene. The trace starts. I have a bus load, the entire alphabet of federal agents breaking down my front door with a warrant. I tell the cops, I sold it to some fella named mac from the internet. Before a carpenter arrives to fix my door I have TV trucks parked in front of the house. Mac, I did everything within the law. So did you in this scenario. My face is plastered all over CNN. Nothing but trouble. I insist on a bill of sale. Do as you wish.

And can you point to how many of these scenarios have actually played out? There are thousands of pvt sales all over this land and I dare say most dont have this fantasy.
 

Kinoons

Obsessed Member
Forum Supporter
#62
And can you point to how many of these scenarios have actually played out? There are thousands of pvt sales all over this land and I dare say most dont have this fantasy.
And secondly, in the specific example given, a BOS wouldn’t prevent the alphabet soup of agencies from blowing down your door like the big bad wolf. Sure, you can show them your BOS while you remount your door, but if you’re looking to avoid the broken door and television coverage a BOS wouldn’t have prevented it (assuming the first interaction with law enforcement is a no-knock warrant).

Now if you postulate that the first interaction is a polite knock and conversation...wait...then having a BOS or not still keeps your door on the hinges and the TV trucks following the swat team somewhere else.

Remember it is up to the government to prove that you did something illegal. It’s not up to you to prove that you didn’t do something illegal. This isn’t a self defense claim where you agree that you injured/killed someone but have a mitigating circumstance that allows for what would normally be an illegal behavior.

I’ve never heard of a BOS being the straw that keeps the camels back from breaking. Perhaps we never hear about it because innocent people don’t make the news very often. Or perhaps we have never heard about it because it doesn’t happen?
 

LASCHRIS

"Life is hard enough. It's harder when your stupid
#63
Scenario was a was way out there I admit. Improbable, yes. Impossible no. In Paddocks case along with several other mass shootings, the weapons were obtained from a FFL. In Paddocks case he ordered some illegal ammunition from some bullet maker in Arizona. Those rounds where not used in the mass shooting, but found at the Paddock crime scene. I am not aware if the bullet maker was subject to civil litigation. He was criminally charged as he should of been. Selling a firearm to a private party is legal. A bill of sale is optional. Both buyer, and seller should exercise due diligence. I will still demand exchange of information as a buyer or seller. Everyone else, please do what you feel is best.
 

Dr. Marneaus

Station Wagon Collector
#64
I dont do them. What are you going to do with that sensitive information? I dont want you throwing a piece of paper with my address along with my license number and what gun i now own into your junk drawer where anybody can happen along and find it.

I dont agree to bills of sale, nor do I require them, unless it's a curio and relic sale, in which case I am required to log the information. That information is kept under lock and key in a secure location. I treat peoples information with care, but I highly doubt most others do.
 

Dr. Marneaus

Station Wagon Collector
#65
Scenario was a was way out there I admit. Improbable, yes. Impossible no. In Paddocks case along with several other mass shootings, the weapons were obtained from a FFL. In Paddocks case he ordered some illegal ammunition from some bullet maker in Arizona. Those rounds where not used in the mass shooting, but found at the Paddock crime scene. I am not aware if the bullet maker was subject to civil litigation. He was criminally charged as he should of been. Selling a firearm to a private party is legal. A bill of sale is optional. Both buyer, and seller should exercise due diligence. I will still demand exchange of information as a buyer or seller. Everyone else, please do what you feel is best.
Flip side: How about somebody commits a crime and writes a bogus bill of sale dated a year ago? Think the cops will just be all "oh, okay, sorry we bothered you". You think it would carry much weight in that situation?

Also, did you just said the bullet maker was criminally charged as he should have been? Like, you're agreeing that somebody who LEGALLY sold their product to somebody that could LEGALLY purchase it, should be criminally liable for what the purchaser did with that item?
 

LASCHRIS

"Life is hard enough. It's harder when your stupid
#66
Flip side: How about somebody commits a crime and writes a bogus bill of sale dated a year ago? Think the cops will just be all "oh, okay, sorry we bothered you". You think it would carry much weight in that situation?

Also, did you just said the bullet maker was criminally charged as he should have been? Like, you're agreeing that somebody who LEGALLY sold their product to somebody that could LEGALLY purchase it, should be criminally liable for what the purchaser did with that item?
Never thought of a bogus bill of sale. For what purpose would that serve?
I google this one up. The bullets were not legal ones.
Douglas Haig, an Arizona man who says he sold tracer ammunition to the gunman in October's Las Vegas massacre, was arrested Friday on a charge of conspiring to manufacture and sell another type of ammunition -- armor-piercing bullets -- in violation of federal law.
 
#67
Again, still looking for documented evidence of a single case where having a bill of sale was key to an otherwise-innocent citizen avoiding prosecution when a firearm they previously owned was used in a criminal action.

Surely there must be numerous instances this has happened, right?
 
#68
Again, still looking for documented evidence of a single case where having a bill of sale was key to an otherwise-innocent citizen avoiding prosecution when a firearm they previously owned was used in a criminal action.

Surely there must be numerous instances this has happened, right?

Not advocating bill of sales.

For the record, I think it's the SELLERS prerogative to do one or not.


That being said, asking for evidence of a citizen avoiding prosecution for selling a firearm that was used in a crime, by having a bill of sale, as though it would be an archived news story, is like standing beside the highway and trying to count how many cars somebody farted in as they drove by. Simply put, there is NO way for anybody to be able to search for that information.


If there is any validity to a police officer following up on where a weapon used in a crime came from, by knocking on Joe Sixpack's door, and Joe were to produce a signed by both parties bill of sale and give the officer a copy, along with a statement that they legally sold the firearm to another state citizen, after verifying ID, then in 99% of cases, one would think that the line of inquisition would end right there.
 
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#70
Again, still looking for documented evidence of a single case where having a bill of sale was key to an otherwise-innocent citizen avoiding prosecution when a firearm they previously owned was used in a criminal action.

Surely there must be numerous instances this has happened, right?

The ATF paid me a visit one time because one of the firearm I bought on-line transferred to me via FFL which I sold later on through a private sale was recovered in a crime scene. Showed them the Bill of Sale and the copy of the NV DL of my buyer. After a short questions and answer thing they left and I guess I'm cleared because I haven't heard from them since then. They only told me not to do Private Sale anymore but instead sell through GunBroker or course the sale to an FFL so they can do back ground check and transfer of ownership.

I sell privately sometimes but when the firearm is traceable to me I would require a Bill of Sale and a copy of the buyers NV ID/DL or NV CCW. If the firearm is not traceable to me because I bought it privately I don't require one.
 

Kinoons

Obsessed Member
Forum Supporter
#71
Not advocating bill of sales.

For the record, I think it's the SELLERS prerogative to do one or not.


That being said, asking for evidence of a citizen avoiding prosecution, as though it would be an archived news story, is like standing beside the highway and trying to count how many cars somebody farted in as they drove by.


If there is any validity to a police officer following up on where a weapon used in a crime came from, by knocking on Joe Sixpack's door, and Joe were to produce a signed by both parties bill of sale and give the officer a copy, along with a statement that they legally sold the firearm to another state citizen, after verifying ID, then in 99% of cases, one would think that the line of inquisition would end right there.
The ATF paid me a visit one time because one of the firearm I bought on-line transferred to me via FFL which I sold later on through a private sale was recovered in a crime scene. Showed them the Bill of Sale and the copy of the NV DL of my buyer. After a short questions and answer thing they left and I guess I'm cleared because I haven't heard from them since then. They only told me not to do Private Sale anymore but instead sell through GunBroker or course the sale to an FFL so they can do back ground check and transfer of ownership.

I sell privately sometimes but when the firearm is traceable to me I would require a Bill of Sale and a copy of the buyers NV ID/DL or NV CCW. If the firearm is not traceable to me because I bought it privately I don't require one.
Without the BOS would the outcome have been any different? You’re only required to not knowingly sell to a prohibited person. An FFL or other background check isn’t required for private sales. The police shouldn’t be “suggesting” otherwise.
 
#72
Without the BOS would the outcome have been any different? You’re only required to not knowingly sell to a prohibited person. An FFL or other background check isn’t required for private sales. The police shouldn’t be “suggesting” otherwise.

I agree but that is where the "gray area" comes in. It is perfectly legal in Nevada to do Private Sale but not to the federal government according to the ATF agent who came here. But we are in Nevada so we are covered by Nevada Laws as well.
 
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Kinoons

Obsessed Member
Forum Supporter
#73
I agree but that is where the "gray area" comes in. It is perfectly legal in Nevada to do Private Sale but not to the federal government.
Not to the federal government? Care to elaborate on that one? The ATF is very clear that person to person sales within a state do not require the involvement of an FFL
 
#74
Not to the federal government? Care to elaborate on that one? The ATF is very clear that person to person sales within a state do not require the involvement of an FFL[/QUOTE

I did not know that. I was just told by the ATF agent who went here not to do Private Sale anymore but do sell through an FFL or through Gun Broker.
 
#77
Without the BOS would the outcome have been any different? You’re only required to not knowingly sell to a prohibited person. An FFL or other background check isn’t required for private sales. The police shouldn’t be “suggesting” otherwise.

I guess there is no way to know that, is there?

That being said, I don't have the faith that many seem to have that the police won't create a hassle for a private citizen. I certainly can see no DOWN side to having a signed bill of sale with the buyers CCW and or drivers license number in this case.

My point stands; the inability to do a search on the net, etc, and provide "documented evidence of a single case where having a bill of sale was key to an otherwise-innocent citizen avoiding prosecution when a firearm they previously owned was used in a criminal action", proves absolutely NOTHING in this debate, one way or the other.

My other point still stands; it is WHOLLY up to the SELLER to decide the conditions of their sale. If a bill of sale is one of those conditions and it "bothers" a potential buyer, then they should simply move on, without comment.

When I sell large items, like a vehicle, to a private party, I put a few conditions on the sale that are not "required" by law. Among those conditions is to insist on CASH, and a face-to-face transaction. The last car I sold private party a couple of years ago, I had an out of state buyer fly here to buy my car, and he brought $18k cash with him. My choice. As he was leaving with my car. The keys to my car. And a signed over title to that car. This disqualified a couple of potential buyers until one that had the money was interested. It is simply too easy to counterfeit a cashiers or certified check. MY sale. MY conditions. Those who didn't like it were free to pound sand.
 
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#78
Unfortunately, they will not differentiate very well between giving you a lawful command and giving you ignorant personal advice.
This.

In spades.


And unfortunately the opinions and preconceived notions of those who wear badges or work in the so-called "Justice System" are what often determine how us lowly serfs are treated.
 

Kinoons

Obsessed Member
Forum Supporter
#79
I guess there is no way to know that, is there?

That being said, I don't have the faith that many seem to have that the police won't create a hassle for a private citizen. I certainly can see no DOWN side to having a signed bill of sale with the buyers CCW and or drivers license number in this case.

My point stands; the inability to do a search on the net, etc, and provide "documented evidence of a single case where having a bill of sale was key to an otherwise-innocent citizen avoiding prosecution when a firearm they previously owned was used in a criminal action", proves absolutely NOTHING in this debate, one way or the other.

My other point still stands; it is WHOLLY up to the SELLER to decide the conditions of their sale. If a bill of sale is one of those conditions and it "bothers" a potential buyer, then they should simply move on, without comment.

When I sell large items, like a vehicle, to a private party, I put a few conditions on the sale that are not "required" by law. Among those conditions is to insist on CASH, and a face-to-face transaction. The last car I sold private party a couple of years ago, I had an out of state buyer fly here to buy my car, and he brought $18k cash with him. My choice. As he was leaving with my car. The keys to my car. And a signed over title to that car. This disqualified a couple of potential buyers until one that had the money was interested. It is simply too easy to counterfeit a cashiers or certified check. MY sale. MY conditions. Those who didn't like it were free to pound sand.
Well the “harm” is a person that I may have never met before is now in possession of enough of my personal information to take a swing at identity fraud. (A DL number, address, DOB, and full name) Or their spouse could do so; or their nephew, etc.

It’s not up to me to make you more comfortable with the sale. If you’re that paranoid then by all means don’t sell to me.

But you are correct, it’s your item and you can require whatever you want.
 
#80
Well the “harm” is a person that I may have never met before is now in possession of enough of my personal information to take a swing at identity fraud. (A DL number, address, DOB, and full name) Or their spouse could do so; or their nephew, etc.

It’s not up to me to make you more comfortable with the sale. If you’re that paranoid then by all means don’t sell to me.

But you are correct, it’s your item and you can require whatever you want.

Lol.

The "paranoid" person is the one that thinks someone is going to go to so much trouble to get your DL number, and address, in order to "take a swing at identity fraud."

There are easier ways to get even more information on people, than to list and sell a firearm.

Keeping in mind that this person will also be giving YOU the same information about themselves.

I usually prefer not to do a bill of sale, but if a seller wants one, I have no problem with it, and I DO require they prepare a 2nd copy so that I get one. I do NOT allow digital images/photos to be taken of my drivers license or CCW.