• Chat feature is now enabled for ALL USERS!

"Tactical" Precision tricks, techniques, discussion

ScottyS

Now we try factory ammo
Forum Supporter
#1
OK, so I figure I've ruffled enough feathers of people who don't really care about "practical" long range or precision application in the other thread. This topic is not redundant, actually it is intended for those discussions where field improvisation and system reliability take precedence over things like absolute accuracy.

This will allow the discussions to remain somewhat separate, with "practical" tangents not stepping on toes.

I am wide open for topics, I am certainly no authority on the subject, being just a guy that shoots. We can discuss handloading, rifle designs, cartridge choices, monetary costs, optics features, supporting equipment, shooting techniques, practice strategies, and of course a lot more under this umbrella.

We will also come to different conclusions than if we were purely attempting "bench" or "controlled conditions" accuracy.

It is certainly not limited to bolt guns, but we are not very interested in CQB in this thread. This is about "practical accuracy" and placement.

I'm thinking that, given the tendency of the post counts to be pretty high on individual threads, I will simply try to keep a list of the high points in this first post as best I can, so people coming in later can get the basics quickly. So, this thread can get as long as it wants and as long as somebody nudges me when they post an important experience, report, review, summary, or synthesis, I can edit this first post with a link to the exact post number. (This means that if you are posting something that you think is critical, summarize it well inside one post, rather than letting the conclusion drag out over 2 pages of one-liners. I fully expect there to be a lot of back-and-forth in between the "report" or "summary" posts, including questions, discussions, and ideas.)

How's that sound? So, fire away.


Posts of note:

Rifle System - Painting/Finishing

Supporting Gear - Ammunition Management

Supporting Gear - Field rest aids
 
Last edited:

ScottyS

Now we try factory ammo
Forum Supporter
#2
I'll start it off with a little trick for top-loaders who may be involved in a "extended" shooting string, where the 5rds in the mag and a few on the side aren't enough.

This has application, for instance, when shooting in a timed or man-on-man 10+ round stage in a tactical competition. When your opponent has a detachable magazine, smoke him with this: scope-mounted temporary ammo card holder. While he is fumbling for that extra mag in his 5.11 baggy pants pocket, you are smoothly sending rounds down as fast as you can rack the bolt with just a little extra hand movement.

Ingredients:
1) Sacrificial 30mm ring (cheap aluminum or turn-in OK)
2) 3-1/2" x 1" x 3/16" aluminum flat bar
3) Sticky-back industrial Velcro
4) Red Tac Ammo Cards (velcro backing)







 

Swan

Guest
#3
I think you are on to something here and its a great idea to see/share other peoples experiences in "practical applications".

Unfortunately, I can't think of anything relevant to add... yet.

Btw, interesting ammo rig you have hooked up there. I will stick to my mags though :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ScottyS

Now we try factory ammo
Forum Supporter
#4
I think you are on to something here and its a great idea to see/share other peoples experiences in "practical applications".

Unfortunately, I can't think of anything relevant to add... yet.

Btw, interesting ammo rig you have hooked up there. I will stick to my mags though :)
Actually, I was figuring on proposals/discussion that would lead to answers as well. Everybody interested in "practical" shooting has something to add.

I could be wrong, but it seems as though quite a few people here are interested in this topic.
 

JFComfort

Long Range Shooter
#5
I think this is a great idea for a very knowledge filled thread!

Long range/Ultra long range can be a little broad! I look forward to adding to the thread as well as taking tips and tricks from others to improve my own techniques and abilities!

I can't believe the amount of intrest we have been getting about long range precision shooting!! I LOVE IT!
 

ScottyS

Now we try factory ammo
Forum Supporter
#7
I think this is a great idea for a very knowledge filled thread!

Long range/Ultra long range can be a little broad! I look forward to adding to the thread as well as taking tips and tricks from others to improve my own techniques and abilities!

I can't believe the amount of intrest we have been getting about long range precision shooting!! I LOVE IT!
Yeah - isn't it great to hand somebody a rifle, give them about 3min of pointers, and have them start hitting LR steel? They get hooked fast.

BTW, I'm not trying to take away from that thread, I just think there are two different answers to the same questions, depending on where you want to go....that whole Savage conversation that I never wanted to have got me thinking......for instance, take "case sizing".......
 

Vegas50

1 Mile Shot Club
#8
I will keep a close eye on this one too. As i am still fairly new to long range shooting with only 6mo past 300yards.

I like the velcro ammo holder on the scope. May have to borrow that one for my bolt 223 w/o a mag.
 

JFComfort

Long Range Shooter
#9
Yeah - isn't it great to hand somebody a rifle, give them about 3min of pointers, and have them start hitting LR steel? They get hooked fast.

BTW, I'm not trying to take away from that thread, I just think there are two different answers to the same questions, depending on where you want to go....that whole Savage conversation that I never wanted to have got me thinking......for instance, take "case sizing".......
I started the long range thread to get more people out shooting because I knew I wasn't the only person in So. Nevada that shot long range. This thread is similar to that thread but more focused on "tactical precision" or "practical application of a long gun at exptened ranges" which I think is a very good idea becuase long range/ultra long range includes BR, Palma and F-Class and I dont participate in those shooting sports because they are too focused on one thing.

Doing more with less and developing the ability to be as adaptable as possible is often the name of the game!
 

JFComfort

Long Range Shooter
#10
Here is a contrabution that most people know about. It as been in all kinds of magazines when they touch on the subject of precision rifles. Before you go to Bass Pro and buy a $35-$40 benchrest style rear bag filled with heavy sand try using a few cups of rice in a Crown Royal bag (I have plenty of extra's) I support the rear of the rifle with the bag and apply and relieve pressure from my off hand to adjust elevation.

Another good tip is to use a $8-$10 freight blanket as your shooting mat. I use them both out in the desert for long range/ultra long range shooting and in LVShooter's Tactical Precision Matches. They work great and roll up easy so I can attach it to my drag bag.




You can also use the rice bag to craddle your rifle on a tri pod or baracade just in case you dont have a good loop hole in the prone supported postion or if you cannot use the prone supported position to make the shot.


 
Last edited:

JFComfort

Long Range Shooter
#11
A really good way to deal with a factory stock is to use 100mph/duct tape and a dense foam padding to build the cheekpiece, and put a stock pack like an Eagle or Tac Ops on top. Personally, I like the rubberized pipe insulation for the building block.

No drilling, the stock pack is like $40, and it feels much better than an aftermarket cheek. You can build it to whatever height you need given the scope position.

My sub-$1000 experiment right now is based on a Tikka T3 and SWFA 10x SS, I've only taken it to 500m so far in my varmint match, but the results were great. I just need to clean the bore, get a few more rounds down, and work a load up. I built the stock up in the same manner.

Bedding the stock yourself is actually not very hard, and is a decent way to make a factory stock more stable while you wait to swoop a deal.
 

ScottyS

Now we try factory ammo
Forum Supporter
#13
For a "precision" semi-auto, where should someone start looking for a quality weapon?
Hmm. This is a large topic as well. Refine the mission a little.....

Double-duty or dedicated long-range shooter?

How much needs to be delivered how far?

A tuned AR-10 such as the 24" rifles turned out by GAP are fantastic weapons. There are also various semi-custom makers offering both uppers and complete guns, such as LWRC and Noveske.

Most of the accurate platforms are derived from the AR-xx design. The M1A's, no matter how cool they are, were not designed with precision in mind, and both getting them there and keeping them that way is a tough road for a host of reasons.
 

broke_again

Recreational Shooter
#14
Hmm. This is a large topic as well. Refine the mission a little.....

Double-duty or dedicated long-range shooter?

How much needs to be delivered how far?

A tuned AR-10 such as the 24" rifles turned out by GAP are fantastic weapons. There are also various semi-custom makers offering both uppers and complete guns, such as LWRC and Noveske.

Most of the accurate platforms are derived from the AR-xx design. The M1A's, no matter how cool they are, were not designed with precision in mind, and both getting them there and keeping them that way is a tough road for a host of reasons.
AR platform, .308 because it is the easiest to find. Double duty but mostly a long range rig. Capable of hitting a man size target at 1000 yds. If I had three grand I would probably order a Larue OBR, so budget would be under $3,000.
 

JFComfort

Long Range Shooter
#15
The most accurate semi-auto I've personally seen and shot is Vegas50's DPMS LR-308. It consistantly shoots sub-moa with hand loaded ammo!



Here is a no S*** statement, what a huge difference a good hand loaded bullet makes. I was shooting 2-4moa groups at best with factory ammo 2 weeks ago.




167 gr A-Max had loads at 3.75 "@ 400m.


I hope to get off early enough today to make it to the Jean range today.
 

ScottyS

Now we try factory ammo
Forum Supporter
#16
So if it were me, simply because of the double-duty requirement, I would seriously look at an 18" barrel length, not full diameter, something mid-to-heavy-contour.
Make sure a top-flight match barrel (Rock Creek, etc) is used if you are not chrome lining it, you don't want to have to worry about fouling for extended periods.

This pretty much puts the DPMS out of the running in it's typical flavor. Also, the Armalite is a pretty tried and true platform. Because of budget considerations, focus on the upper. The lower with an A2 stock (build a cheekpiece once the scope is on) and a "tuned" 2-stage trigger will be just fine.

So.....get a regular old Armalite lower and purchase the compatible upper from a reputable custom accuracy builder, to your spec.

I have an Armalite AR-10 16" A4, it's fairly stock, but I like it a lot, and it's connected more than once with 1000yd targets. For a chrome-lined tube it actually shoots very well.
 

ziebart

Guest
#17
Sorry about the Savage topic. I hope this post makes up for it. I don't really have any of my own stuff to add, as I have not been doing this for long and I don't have much experience outside of Savage bolt guns. I will try and add more as I see them.

Also I will say that I can probably guess where you are going with the case sizing statement. I agree, as will most reloading manuals, full length size for maximum reliability, even in bolt guns. The shoulder can move forward making closing the bolt more difficult.

Articles from Zak Smiths web site
Practical long range shooting

Long Range Optics update


8541 Tactical mildot range estimation


Shooter ready - mildot ranging demo


Snipers hide - Getting started in LR shooting FAQ


FM 23-10 sniper training field manual


From Tactical Operations

During the development of the Tango 51, Tac Ops took a standard 26-inch barrel and chopped it down it to 18 inches in one-inch increments. Between 10 to 20 rounds we re fired from each increment. They found that a 20-inch barrel provides for a complete propellant burn and no velocity loss when using Federal Match 168- grain BTHP, a cartridge that has become something of an industry standard. Going to an 18-inch barrel only results in a loss of 32 feet per second (fps).

Shorter barelled rifles are more versatile, being equally suitable for both urban and rural operations. According to Tac Ops, there isn’t any need to go to the 26-inch barrel unless you want to use a heavier bullet or push the round to higher velocity using more powder. The Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department’s Special Enforcement Bureau performed similar tests and came to similar conclusions.

From MSTN
for AR15's in 223
LIMITED DATA, ADMITTEDLY, BUT I THINK IT'S INTERESTING:

MK 262 VELOCITY DATA
__________________________________


7.5" 2053 FPS ... 10.5" 2363 FPS
DIFFERENCE 310 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 103 FPS

10.5" 2363 FPS ... 14.5" 2576 FPS
DIFFERENCE 213 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 53 FPS

14.5" 2576 FPS ... 16" 2669 FPS
DIFFERENCE 93 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 62 FPS

16" 2669 FPS ... 18" 2769 FPS
DIFFERENCE 100 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 50 FPS

18" 2769 FPS ... 20" 2818 FPS
DIFFERENCE 49 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 25 FPS



M855 VELOCITY DATA
__________________________

7.5" 2244 FPS ... 10.5" 2639 FPS
DIFFERENCE 395 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 132 FPS

10.5" 2639 FPS ... 14.5" 2861 FPS
DIFFERENCE 222 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 56 FPS

14.5" 2861 FPS ... 16" 2938 FPS
DIFFERENCE 77 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 51 FPS

16" 2938 FPS ... 18" 3046 FPS
DIFFERENCE 108 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 54 FPS

18" 3046 FPS ... 20" 3061 FPS
DIFFERENCE 15 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 7.5 FPS


XM193 VELOCITY DATA
_________________________________


7.5" 2364 FPS ... 10.5" 2755 FPS
DIFFERENCE 391 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 130 FPS PER INCH

10.5" 2755 FPS ... 14.5" 2984 FPS
DIFFERENCE 229 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 57 FPS PER INCH

14.5" 2984 FPS ... 16" 3075 FPS
DIFFERENCE 91 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 61 FPS

16" 3075 FPS ... 18" 3245 FPS
DIFFERENCE 170 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 85 FPS

18" 3245 ... 20" 3254 FPS
DIFFERENCE 9 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 4.5 FPS
 
Last edited by a moderator: