requiem
Ain't nobody got time for that!
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Toyota 4 runner or Subaru
- Thread starter TexasJackKin
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Toyotas have been utterly reliable and safe. My father and mother were involved in a bad crashed where they rolled over several times. The Tundra was wrecked but was still driveable. My father, mother, and their dog all walked away from it with minor scrapes and bumps. Prior to that we had owned Tacomas, 4runners, and Camry's with no underlying issues. My first hand me down car in high school was a Toyota Previa. Fun little van that lasted past 200k!
Just an Average Joe
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannm...azda-can-teach-an-industry-titan-like-toyota/
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...rtnership-to-share-technologies-confront-cost
Quoted: "It was quite interesting to hear how Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda sized up his much-smaller partner at a joint press conference in Japan on Wednesday. “In a sense, Mazda is ahead of us in many areas,” he said, according to press reports out of Japan. He believes Mazda leads Toyota by a "full lap" when it comes to high-compression engines, efficient transmissions and lightweight chassis systems. "
You want to talk about reliability, more than half of all cars registered with the SCCA are Mazdas. In other words, cars that get ran hard at the limit, and have to be maintained on the owners dime, usually with DIY labor. In short, in SCCA amateur racing, straight abusive environments, mazdas outnumber all other makes combined. The most popular toyota in SCCA in recent years is probably the FT86, which has been plagued with issues when ran hard.
Not to mention Toyota's latest 4 cylinder engine is pretty much an updated, and improved version of Mazda's skyactiv 4 cylinder (released in 2013).
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...rtnership-to-share-technologies-confront-cost
Quoted: "It was quite interesting to hear how Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda sized up his much-smaller partner at a joint press conference in Japan on Wednesday. “In a sense, Mazda is ahead of us in many areas,” he said, according to press reports out of Japan. He believes Mazda leads Toyota by a "full lap" when it comes to high-compression engines, efficient transmissions and lightweight chassis systems. "
You want to talk about reliability, more than half of all cars registered with the SCCA are Mazdas. In other words, cars that get ran hard at the limit, and have to be maintained on the owners dime, usually with DIY labor. In short, in SCCA amateur racing, straight abusive environments, mazdas outnumber all other makes combined. The most popular toyota in SCCA in recent years is probably the FT86, which has been plagued with issues when ran hard.
Not to mention Toyota's latest 4 cylinder engine is pretty much an updated, and improved version of Mazda's skyactiv 4 cylinder (released in 2013).
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Just an Average Joe
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Meh.
Sounds like corporate gamesmanship and polite talk. The Japanese are masters at this.
Assuming you are talking about Miata's with SCCA. Fun, cheap sportscars for amateur racers. Very little HP. Small cheap to maintain engines. Fast on a lower speed circuit because they are light, and the chassis is well balanced.
The FT86 is as much, if not more, Subaru than Toyota, so if it is not a reliable amateur race car it does little to diminish Toyota's well EARNED reputation for unmatched reliability across the board.
I wasn't talking about a single line of cars.
That is exactly why I wrote:
Toyota has THE best WORLDWIDE reputation for long term reliability - for a reason.
Mazda? Not a brand I have ever heard when talking about legendary reliability. Certainly not across the board as virtually EVERY car Toyota makes is, and has been, for decades.
Do the research and check a few years of the major auto ranking for reliability polls and organizations (Consumer Reports, JD Power, etc) Toyota is ALWAYS in the top handful, and has been for many years. (Don't forget that Lexus IS a Toyota nameplate).
Mazda? Not so much.
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If it was simply gamesmanship, and polite talk, why did so many of their mass market models adopt skyactiv like designs, and tech in the time since the partnership was announced? Especially evident in their 4 cylinder development. Why did toyota simply re-badge a mazda for their new Yaris, a high volume model globally? Toyota rested on their laurels, and reputation, and they know it. They invested too heavily in hybrid tech, and their ICE engines fell behind the competition across the board. They used access to mazda tech to modernized their 4 cylinder motors. Their partnership with BMW is probably meant to do the same for their v8. Which the Tundra is far behind the competition in HP, and MPG.
The miata might be the majority of mazdas in scca, but they are far from the only ones.
You want legendary reliability? Only Japanese car manufacturer to ever win LeMans, Toyota and Honda sank a lot of money trying and never succeeded.
Here's some research, latest data I could find. http://www.jdpower.com/press-releases/2018-uk-vehicle-dependability-study
They're still ranked up there, but they are nowhere near head and shoulders above the competition like they were 20 years ago.
The miata might be the majority of mazdas in scca, but they are far from the only ones.
You want legendary reliability? Only Japanese car manufacturer to ever win LeMans, Toyota and Honda sank a lot of money trying and never succeeded.
Here's some research, latest data I could find. http://www.jdpower.com/press-releases/2018-uk-vehicle-dependability-study
They're still ranked up there, but they are nowhere near head and shoulders above the competition like they were 20 years ago.
Just an Average Joe
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Not sure if you researched the deal with Toyota and Mazda.
Mazda is a just barely profitable brand. Toyota is one of the largest and most successful car brands in the world. Without Toyota, Mazda was in danger of not staying in business long term. Toyota saw an opportunity for themselves.
Again with the race cars, which have NOTHING to do with production car reliability.
And the only reliability survey you could find to support your position was from Great Britain/ England? A much, much smaller market than the US, with many completely different models.
In surveys of the US, Mazda doesn't even break the top 10 in terms of reliability/ quality (at least not on a regular basis). I believe Lexus was top for the last 6 or 7 years in a row on the JD Power survey.
http://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Ratings...ts-and-findings-2018-us-vehicle-dependability
Not sure if you researched the deal with Toyota and Mazda.
Mazda is a just barely profitable brand. Toyota is one of the largest and most successful car brands in the world. Without Toyota, Mazda was in danger of not staying in business long term. Toyota saw an opportunity for themselves.
Again with the race cars, which have NOTHING to do with production car reliability.
And the only reliability survey you could find to support your position was from Great Britain/ England? A much, much smaller market than the US, with many completely different models.
In surveys of the US, Mazda doesn't even break the top 10 in terms of reliability/ quality (at least not on a regular basis). I believe Lexus was top for the last 6 or 7 years in a row on the JD Power survey.
http://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Ratings...ts-and-findings-2018-us-vehicle-dependability
Mazda is a just barely profitable brand. Toyota is one of the largest and most successful car brands in the world. Without Toyota, Mazda was in danger of not staying in business long term. Toyota saw an opportunity for themselves.
Again with the race cars, which have NOTHING to do with production car reliability.
And the only reliability survey you could find to support your position was from Great Britain/ England? A much, much smaller market than the US, with many completely different models.
In surveys of the US, Mazda doesn't even break the top 10 in terms of reliability/ quality (at least not on a regular basis). I believe Lexus was top for the last 6 or 7 years in a row on the JD Power survey.
http://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Ratings...ts-and-findings-2018-us-vehicle-dependability
Amateur, club racing race cars are actually one of the best measures of a car's real world reliability, since they are ran hard, and maintained on a end user budget. Often the only modifications are, safety equipment, suspension (will add more chassis abuse), and wheels/tires (will add more chassis abuse).
The collective abuse, and data gathering of reliability is more than any manufacturer regardless of size could obtain, and continues well beyond any manufacturer will even support their models.
It also depends on the segment, if not the actual model.
For example, my wife's 2016 Navigator killed the Lexus in it's segment:
http://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Ratings/Quality/2016/Large-Premium-SUV
For example, my wife's 2016 Navigator killed the Lexus in it's segment:
http://www.jdpower.com/Cars/Ratings/Quality/2016/Large-Premium-SUV
Just an Average Joe
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So Miata's are reliable. Their simplicity is why. Included in that is their low-tech, low horsepower power plant.
High horsepower engines tend to be less reliable. Also part of the Toyota "recipe", as they have mostly stayed away from very high output engines. Their last regular production "real" sports cars for the US market were the MR2 Turbo and Supra Turbo of the mid to late 1990's, I believe. Both models, even 20 plus years later, are highly sought after and still carry a premium price. Why? RELIABLE. I owned another 90's era Japanese supercar, a Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4. When I owned it the car was about 5 years old. What a piece of junk money pit. And my experience is not uncommon (thats the beauty of the internet allowing shared experiences), versus my ownership of a 1995 Turbo MR2 that was FLAWLESS in terms of reliability, even with aftermarket parts and being run hard.
Not ALL Japanese brands are created equally.
Even Lexus's high horsepower sports car offerings are tame compared to their competition, ie BMW M cars, and Mercedes AMG.
BUT - the Lexus products retain the reliability their loyal customers demand.
Not hating on Mazda's, they make some stylish and fun cars. That said, I will stick to my guns that across the board they are not as well engineered, built, and reliable in the long term than Toyotas.
Many, many, many people have owned Toyota's of different models, and taken them over 200k miles or more with nothing but basic maintenance. Same thing applies for Hondas, especially Accords and Civics. I have personally owned a Toyota Tercel that had 220k on the clock when I sold it, with nothing but regular cheap maintenance. NEVER a mechanical breakdown. Also owned a Toyota Celica GT convertible that had 150k on the clock when sold, same solid ownership experience.
I contrast this with the many American cars, and Nissan/Infiniti products I have owned over the years, and NONE of them came even close to being as trouble free.
Reputations ARE important.
They are earned for a reason.
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Just an Average Joe
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These surveys are a good data point when comparing vehicles, especially when looking for cars that are particularly trouble prone. That being said, they are looking at reliability at only the 3-year point I believe, which is not much of a real world benchmark.
See my post on my own personal experience with Toyota products, which can be, and has been echoed by millions of satisfied customers over the last 3 decades. Not quite so common for American cars or the less celebrated Japanese brands to do so well long term as Toyotas and Hondas.
My last Honda was one of the worst cars I ever owned... The Odyssey. They are great when they work, but mine left us stranded 3 times. Battery died every 18 months, almost like clockwork. Funny thing is they are still probably the best minivan - so that must speak volumes about the low overall quality of that segment overall.
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Bummer.
Was it just a new battery every time? The dealer never found an underlying cause?
Wonder if it was just bad luck and a run of crap batteries.
Our weather is harder on batteries than even extreme cold - not an excuse for your experience, but I've found even so-called "premium" car batteries last only about 4 years. Just had TWO of my car batteries crap out this month - one was 4.5 years old, one was just under 4 years old - I guess the heat these last weeks pushed them over the edge.
Was it just a new battery every time? The dealer never found an underlying cause?
Wonder if it was just bad luck and a run of crap batteries.
Our weather is harder on batteries than even extreme cold - not an excuse for your experience, but I've found even so-called "premium" car batteries last only about 4 years. Just had TWO of my car batteries crap out this month - one was 4.5 years old, one was just under 4 years old - I guess the heat these last weeks pushed them over the edge.
Modern cars in general are reliable, across manufacturers. The only real issues with unreliability of modern cars are anecdotal (which your personal experiences are), and major recall issues (which toyota was just as susceptible, runaway acceleration? Or this? https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/car-parts-and-accessories/engine-sludge/index.htm). Under normal use conditions, you're splitting hairs to find any reliability difference. It's the equivalent of shooting 100 rounds through a gun every month, and cleaning it right afterwards. Even if you could actually quantify, and say toyota is 10% more reliable than brand x. Fact is the majority of users would never be able to experience that difference in their use.
Again, miatas might be the most numerous mazda model in scca, but mazda 2's are getting up there with the popularity of b-spec, and the RX-7 (which has one of the worst reputations for reliability), yet are still very commonly campaigned. SCCA campaigned cars are abused, plain and simple. Breakages and breakdowns are expected eventually. If toyotas were significantly more dependable under these use conditions, they would be more prolific period. The fact mazda outnumber toyotas so significantly in a hard use environment is telling especially telling, when as a niche manufacture they sell a single digit percentage of the cars toyota sells. The OP's other choice, the subaru, is also a niche manufacturer. If you want to attribute that success to just the miata. Then how much of toyota's reputation do you attribute to just the camry and corolla alone?
Also, look at every comparison test by every major auto publication in recent years. Mazda generally has been coming out on top in just about every single one. If they were selling crap, we'd heard about it by now.
Again, miatas might be the most numerous mazda model in scca, but mazda 2's are getting up there with the popularity of b-spec, and the RX-7 (which has one of the worst reputations for reliability), yet are still very commonly campaigned. SCCA campaigned cars are abused, plain and simple. Breakages and breakdowns are expected eventually. If toyotas were significantly more dependable under these use conditions, they would be more prolific period. The fact mazda outnumber toyotas so significantly in a hard use environment is telling especially telling, when as a niche manufacture they sell a single digit percentage of the cars toyota sells. The OP's other choice, the subaru, is also a niche manufacturer. If you want to attribute that success to just the miata. Then how much of toyota's reputation do you attribute to just the camry and corolla alone?
Also, look at every comparison test by every major auto publication in recent years. Mazda generally has been coming out on top in just about every single one. If they were selling crap, we'd heard about it by now.
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ROFL.
And my "anecdotal evidence" which is based on decades of driving and millions of miles IS ECHOED by many, many other people, with combined centuries of driving and billions of miles.
It is not a "fad" or new idea that Toyotas are great long term reliable vehicles. It is commonplace knowledge around the WORLD for a reason.
It is also why their resale values and so much higher than Mazda, Subaru, etc, etc.
As stated, reputations ARE important.
If you wish to believe that Mazda makes just as well engineered, built, and LONG TERM reliable cars as Toyota, then buy a Mazda.
If we had the means to do a nationwide survey, however, rest assured that your views are in the minority.
Or you could just do as I do, and buy what you want, reliability be damned. At this point in my life I can afford reasonable repair bills to drive what I want (hence 2 Fords in my driveway, BOTH of which have already undergone factory recalls - so NOT the most reliable or well built, IMO - but they are fun to drive).
However, if someone wants my opinion on quality and reliability - Toyota (and Honda) it is, IMO.
An opinion that is shared by many more people than yours, I daresay.
And it's not even close.
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